Lord Vader, are you serious?
I know that statistic shows average Americans can not find Afghanistan or Iraq or Iran... those of which (no offence) they send their boys and girls to die for, yet even the name of the country is hard to remember; but can not find the one big ass nation which is the 3rd biggest of the whole damn planet - that hurts.
Average Chinese people who finished their middle school, would know that US is at west hemishere, sit at the BEST part of North America continent, and although can not name all, can tell there are 50 states of the "smaller than us" country (that's the funny part, China got 34 provinces "only"), 2 of which are situated outside the mainland, which "taken" from someone else... no offence intented.
No sh*t, this is not propaganda, any semi-educated Chinese people can find USA at the map - that's not fair, if there is any "G2" going on yet one country-men can not find the other on map. (Edit: I am not selling "G2", I am undermining it in fact)
Chinese wisdom believes self-occlude kills a mighty empire - no small talk here.
09-04-2011, 04:43 AM
#2 bd popeye
The Last Jedi
Re: DoD 2011 annual military report on china is out
No offence taken Red__Sword!
And I am serious. Many Americans are poor at geography. Even that of the US.
China must be doing a better job at geography..
09-16-2011, 01:21 AM
#3 vesicles
Location Texas
Re: DoD 2011 annual military report on china is out
Originally Posted by Red___Sword
Lord Vader, are you serious?
I know that statistic shows average Americans can not find Afghanistan or Iraq or Iran... those of which (no offence) they send their boys and girls to die for, yet even the name of the country is hard to remember; but can not find the one big ass nation which is the 3rd biggest of the whole damn planet - that hurts.
Average Chinese people who finished their middle school, would know that US is at west hemishere, sit at the BEST part of North America continent, and although can not name all, can tell there are 50 states of the "smaller than us" country (that's the funny part, China got 34 provinces "only"), 2 of which are situated outside the mainland, which "taken" from someone else... no offence intented.
No sh*t, this is not propaganda, any semi-educated Chinese people can find USA at the map - that's not fair, if there is any "G2" going on yet one country-men can not find the other on map. (Edit: I am not selling "G2", I am undermining it in fact)
Chinese wisdom believes self-occlude kills a mighty empire - no small talk here.
Chill, man. It is fact that most Americans are poor with geography. It is mostly because of the difference in education systems in China vs. the US. In China, all courses are required. So everyone has to take geography. However, most of the subjects in American schools are elective and don't have to be taken, except English, math, political science, American history and some kind of science. As you can imagine, geography is not the most exciting class and not many kids take it. Many Americans cannot even draw the general shape of their own state, let alone the location of another country. This is not to say anything about the quality of the education system in the States, only that it is different from that of China.
09-16-2011, 03:06 AM
#4 PanAsian
Re: DoD 2011 annual military report on china is out
Not to sound like it's a conspiracy theory; the poor education in world history (including geography) that most Americans get conveniently allow the US elite to either put on a pedestal or demonize any country/culture/society/government and easily sell the message to its own people.
09-16-2011, 03:51 AM
#5 vesicles
Location Texas
Re: DoD 2011 annual military report on china is out
Originally Posted by PanAsian
Not to sound like it's a conspiracy theory; the poor education in world history (including geography) that most Americans get conveniently allow the US elite to either put on a pedestal or demonize any country/culture/society/government and easily sell the message to its own people.
To be honest, I actually like the American system. Why? When I was in China, my focus was heavily biased toward math and science. My dad always says if I stayed in China and finished schooling there, I would never be able to get in a good college. This is because China's system wants people to be good with everything. You will have to get a high total score for all the subjects to get into a good college. For me, the courses like Chinese, political science and geography would drag me down so bad and my total score would not be high enough to get in any good colleges. When I came to the State, however, I was able to choose those courses that I liked and thrive.
I think I fit much better in this kind of system. The American system cares about everyone, including those with special interests and talents. Instead, China's system blindly wants everyone to be good with everything. Jack of all trades means expert of none. One might think China's system could allow someone to know a little about everything. However, everyone of us knows that we would simply study for the tests and forget all about it once the test is done in a class that we don't like. How many of us still remember anything about those classes we hate in school? It's waste of time and energy. And most importantly, it would not allow people with special talents and interests to thrive. I would imagine I would be a factory worker if I stayed in China since I would not be able to get into college. Instead, the American system allows me to thrive and I am now a successful scientist in cancer biology.
Last edited by vesicles; 09-16-2011 at 03:57 AM.
09-16-2011, 01:44 PM
#6 Red___Sword
Re: DoD 2011 annual military report on china is out
Vesicles, no any intent of bash to American education system, just a clarification:
The "know everything" part of Chinese education, ends at the graduation of high school, that's year 2 of high school. It is totally different the GRADUATION FROM HIGH SCHOOL, and the ENTRY TO UNIVERSITY. After a talent who scores full mark of science subjects and barely passes the art subjects at his high school graduation exam, he can choose to take the science OR art track in his future study, and forget the other.(Chinese, English, Math are compulsory for both track though a little different in study). At the end of year 3 of high school, every Chinese take a walk to hell's gate and go for NATIONAL COLLEGE ENTRANCE EXAMINATION 全国高等教育入学考试， “高考” for short, where for one, the math questions, could easily beat the crap out of year 2 college student in UK (google it...)
All I want to say, is that emphasising people need to good at something (vs. good at everything), still requires people have some basic understanding of certain level of "everything", otherwise PanAsian at post #26 (Edit: #4 of this thread) speaks the grim truth. (lable every piece of truth into "conspiracy theory" is one of the trick they used too often.)
09-16-2011, 06:39 PM
#7 delft
Re: DoD 2011 annual military report on china is out
Originally Posted by vesicles
Chill, man. It is fact that most Americans are poor with geography. It is mostly because of the difference in education systems in China vs. the US. In China, all courses are required. So everyone has to take geography. However, most of the subjects in American schools are elective and don't have to be taken, except English, math, political science, American history and some kind of science. As you can imagine, geography is not the most exciting class and not many kids take it. Many Americans cannot even draw the general shape of their own state, let alone the location of another country. This is not to say anything about the quality of the education system in the States, only that it is different from that of China.
Does give high school political science insight into the question: how could politics in Washington DC become so dysfunctional? What else does it provide?
09-17-2011, 04:30 AM
#8 FriedRiceNSpice
Re: DoD 2011 annual military report on china is out
In China, there are lots of technology institutes and universities with very good science and engineering programs. They will admit students based on their scores in the relevant subjects, not overall scores. That's what I heard from my parents and their friends.
09-20-2011, 01:56 AM
#9 vesicles
Re: DoD 2011 annual military report on china is out
Originally Posted by FriedRiceNSpice
In China, there are lots of technology institutes and universities with very good science and engineering programs. They will admit students based on their scores in the relevant subjects, not overall scores. That's what I heard from my parents and their friends.
I don't think these schools are any good in terms of building your credentials. You may be able to find a job, but it's not going to get you into grad/med school or anything. And no one will care about those technology degrees, no matter where you are, China or the US.
09-20-2011, 02:46 AM
#10 solarz
Re: DoD 2011 annual military report on china is out
Originally Posted by vesicles
To be honest, I actually like the American system. Why? When I was in China, my focus was heavily biased toward math and science. My dad always says if I stayed in China and finished schooling there, I would never be able to get in a good college. This is because China's system wants people to be good with everything. You will have to get a high total score for all the subjects to get into a good college. For me, the courses like Chinese, political science and geography would drag me down so bad and my total score would not be high enough to get in any good colleges. When I came to the State, however, I was able to choose those courses that I liked and thrive.
I think I fit much better in this kind of system. The American system cares about everyone, including those with special interests and talents. Instead, China's system blindly wants everyone to be good with everything. Jack of all trades means expert of none. One might think China's system could allow someone to know a little about everything. However, everyone of us knows that we would simply study for the tests and forget all about it once the test is done in a class that we don't like. How many of us still remember anything about those classes we hate in school? It's waste of time and energy. And most importantly, it would not allow people with special talents and interests to thrive. I would imagine I would be a factory worker if I stayed in China since I would not be able to get into college. Instead, the American system allows me to thrive and I am now a successful scientist in cancer biology.
When did you go to the US? I dare say that your schooling experience in China was instrumental in you doing well in the US. I remember that I never listened to a single math class from elementary school to secondary school. What I learned in grade 2 in China was enough to get me past grade 6 math in Canada, and what I learned in Chinese school every saturday was enough to keep me ahead of the class to the end of high school.
Family values and society also plays a big part. In China, competition is much fiercer, and typically a much greater emphasis is put on language and literature in general education than in North America. Chinese families also tend to push their children a lot more strictly on education than other American or Canadian families.
：
一：*1小学*2中学的表达分别对应原文的elementary school 及 secondary school
引用牛津词典里的解释，elementary school：a school for children aged from 6 to 11,大致对应我们的小学阶段；secondary school：a school for children aged from 11 to 18,大致对应我们的初中+高中阶段。
二：前文里出现的middle school 及 high school 在英美所对应的阶段有所不同，但本文所出现的含义按国内通常理解即可。
09-20-2011, 08:25 AM
#11 bladerunner
Location Xin Xi Lan
Re: DoD 2011 annual military report on china is out
Originally Posted by solarz
Family values and society also plays a big part. In China, competition is much fiercer, and typically a much greater emphasis is put on language and literature in general education than in North America. Chinese families also tend to push their children a lot more strictly on education than other American or Canadian families.
I recall you once saying that the differences was less marked when at uni. Or something like that.
09-20-2011, 10:35 AM
#12 CottageLV
Banned Idiot
Re: China's Education system compared to the USA
Education in all oriental cultures are kind of messed up. It is indeed true that oriental (South Korea, Japan and other Chinese influenced cultures) students can achieve insanely high scores on examinations, but in real life they can't get anything done. They are simply trained into exam machines. We can already see the after effects to this problem. There are tens of millions of university graduates each year in China, which is an astounding number to look at. However, there's also a huge shortage of skilled workers (academically educated), forcing companies to retrain those kids from scratch.
I personally experienced this first hand. I have seen a lot of students from China (including South Korea, Japan, etc) that are saints at doing exams. But when comes to laboratory sessions, a lot of them struggle. In real life, we need abilities similar to laboratory skills, not exam skills to innovate and progress.
So to put it a little bluntly, those countries are really wasting money and not educating the kids properly.
09-20-2011, 11:17 AM
#13 solarz
Re: China's Education system compared to the USA
Originally Posted by CottageLV
Education in all oriental cultures are kind of messed up. It is indeed true that oriental (South Korea, Japan and other Chinese influenced cultures) students can achieve insanely high scores on examinations, but in real life they can't get anything done. They are simply trained into exam machines. We can already see the after effects to this problem. There are tens of millions of university graduates each year in China, which is an astounding number to look at. However, there's also a huge shortage of skilled workers (academically educated), forcing companies to retrain those kids from scratch.
I personally experienced this first hand. I have seen a lot of students from China (including South Korea, Japan, etc) that are saints at doing exams. But when comes to laboratory sessions, a lot of them struggle. In real life, we need abilities similar to laboratory skills, not exam skills to innovate and progress.
So to put it a little bluntly, those countries are really wasting money and not educating the kids properly.
LOL, so explain why my dad's R&D department in Merck is almost exclusively Chinese?
09-20-2011, 11:51 AM
#14 plawolf
Re: China's Education system compared to the USA
@ Cottage
That is a silly position to take and fails to consider so many obvious factors.
One of the main reasons Oriental students do not thrive in the west is because of the massive cultural difference, and not education. When my father worked at a university in the UK, he was always able to get the best out of Chinese students, and those students tend to be far better than their western counterparts, not that there are many western counterparts that is.
It is folly to expect people brought up and taught in a completely different culture and manner to be able to take to the kind of jobs and roles that are designed for natives. It is as unreasonable to expect an Oriental person to get off a plane and fit right in in the west as it is for a westerner to do so in places like China, Japan or South Korea.
Funnily enough, there is a new term that is fast becoming common in finance circles. FISHTAIL, which stands for Failed In Shang Hai Trying Again In London. These are the young hotheads who went over to China expecting to take China by the scruff of the neck and own the Chinese economic miracle. Needless to say, most of the people who went over with that attitude and mindset did not do so well, and have started to move back to London to try and get their old jobs back.
The main reason that western firms are investing so much to train local Chinese people to perform roles they would have sent ex-pats to do in years past is because they are realizing that it is easier and cheaper to train locals to do the job right than to teach westerners who already can do the job how to do it in Asia. And guess what, their businesses are benefiting from the change.
You are also in for a big surprise if you think western educated students are ready to hop into work straight out of campus with no need for further education. Even in highly specialized fields like law, firms still invest huge amounts of time and money to train their staff to do their work.
There are very few exceptions where what you learn at university will be useful for you in your working life outside of pure academia.
China's education system does have its flaws. The biggest that I can see is the poor transition between high school and university.
In high school, there is so much competition and pressure to get an amazing mark to get into a good uni that students are forced to work insanely hard, and teachers pretty much spoonfeed the students to make sure they get the best possible mark as their bonuses depend on the marks their students get.
But once you get into Uni, the lectures in China behave largely like their western counterparts, meaning there is no-one there to spoon feed the students or to jump on their backs to make sure they do all their homework.
For most students, the habits of doing so much work learnt up to high school keep them working hard. But for a significant minority, they just struggle to adapt and end up doing too little work and drop out.
That is far from an uniquely oriental problem, as many high-flyers in western countries who achieve that because of parental pressure also 'rebel' like that when they are at uni, and you can usually tell which students are there only because it is what their parents decided, and they tend to not do so great unfortunately.
The broad nature and lack of specialization in Chinese primary and secondary education is less clear-cut. Choice is a double edged sword, and can be extremely harmful if the person making the choice does so for the wrong reasons. Given the choice, I don't think any children would want to brush their teeth. Would you ever allow your child to take that choice?
I have seen many of my old high school friends from the UK under-achieve badly and end up in dead-end no-hope jobs that they will probably keep for the rest of their lives, and these were smart, capable kids who are in this position today because they chose their subjects at high-school not based on what the good universities and courses wanted, but on which are the easiest subjects and the timetable the classes are scheduled. So they can have an early finish or late start on certain days.
That is the kind of stupid decisions children make, that is why we do not allow children to enter into legally binding contracts or hold them to the same standards of culpability if they commit a crime. Why should be intrust their futures to them at such a tender age, before they really know what they want or how these choices would affect them in the long-term?
Another thing I will say in favor of a broad approach is, how will you know what you really like if you have not tried different things out?
In the west, you are seeing fewer and fewer students taking up 'mathy' subjects and careers, and that is mainly down to choice. We all know that it is hard work learning your times tables and periodic tables, that it is no fun doing endless sums to hone your skills, and that os why kids are not choosing them. But you will not experience the true job of subjects like math or science until you have mastered the basics and move on to the more interesting aspects.
If you ask the world's great musicians, engineers and academics whether they loved the subject they are doing now when they were children, and 9 times out of 10, they would not only say they didn't like it, but that they hated it. Until that one magical moment when the scales lifted from their eyes and changed their lives forever.
I may not remember everything I learnt in all those different classes in middle school in China today, but they did open my eyes to what is out their, and for the subjects that did truly interest me, those early foundations have proved invaluable.
There is much to be admired about how western secondary education prepares a student for university life and helps them to develop independently and confidently (interestingly enough, while American students rarely rank top in international competitions, they always rank top when asked how well they felt they did, some might laugh, but confidence and self-believe is an extremely powerful and useful trait, and all too many oriental students seem to be too lacking in that department). However, there is something terribly amiss with the American education system.
If you have not seen 'Waiting for Superman', then I strongly urge you to see it. It is an extremely well made documentary about the modern American education system. What impressed me most about the film is that there does not seem to be any political motive, any axe to grind by the makers. They only cared about finding out what is wrong with America's education system and how to fix it. It is a very eye-opening, powerful and genuine story, and it is hard not to be moved by it.
09-20-2011, 12:04 PM
#15 kwaigonegin
Re: China's Education system compared to the USA
Originally Posted by CottageLV
Education in all oriental cultures are kind of messed up. It is indeed true that oriental (South Korea, Japan and other Chinese influenced cultures) students can achieve insanely high scores on examinations, but in real life they can't get anything done. They are simply trained into exam machines. We can already see the after effects to this problem. There are tens of millions of university graduates each year in China, which is an astounding number to look at. However, there's also a huge shortage of skilled workers (academically educated), forcing companies to retrain those kids from scratch.
I personally experienced this first hand. I have seen a lot of students from China (including South Korea, Japan, etc) that are saints at doing exams. But when comes to laboratory sessions, a lot of them struggle. In real life, we need abilities similar to laboratory skills, not exam skills to innovate and progress.
So to put it a little bluntly, those countries are really wasting money and not educating the kids properly.
How do you explain Asian American students then? or ethnic chinese/japanese/korean students in any country for that matter...they do extremely well academically as well but obviously having grown up and gone to school here like anyone else would also have the benefit of practicality.
If your theory is true than asian american students wouldn't stand out academically compared to others. In fact they would probably lack behind whites since generally speaking minority students fair worse than their white counterparts in academics but that isn't the case. I think most would also argue when you say Japanese/Japan lack innovation and progress.
If you ask me I think it has more to do with family prioritization than a particular country's educational system. Asian families tend to focus more on their kids' education regardless of what country they grow up in.
BTW I think your post in which you painted with a very broad brush probably just offended half of our esteem SDF friends here
#16 Red___Sword
Re: China's Education system compared to the USA
wolf, you damn should run for President!
Be it a university or an Oceanian state, not sure you can run for the US of A though. (It is STILL a compliment)
Well, we accidently have had us a new arena, that no doubt wisdom would shine, but it is still an arena - look at the thread title.
I don't think these schools are any good in terms of building your credentials. You may be able to find a job, but it's not going to get you into grad/med school or anything. And no one will care about those technology degrees, no matter where you are, China or the US.
I personally find it funny enough (no bash here), that when Chinese people, after many years of social practice realizing that outputs millions of undergruduates every year, when 实业 (I don't have good terms - "1st and 2nd industry") is in desperate needs of capable tech personnels, is not the way out. - The successful country like US, are ALSO having this social view of look down upon tech persons.
A veteran technician who achieved "Senior Technician" natioanl certification, earns as many as the general manager of the same corporate, runs the "value-adding-corp"(the production department) like masterchiefs runs the USMC (heard it from popeye somewhere); The capable technicians across all "ranks" (different levels of recognition) recieves all kinds of "perks" ranging from freely screw their "ranking officer" (manager) to proudly deliver lectures to (even) Senior Engineers. - That's China Today (no, not a newspaper)
Frankly, the whole world had too many graduates and too few tech people, no matter what education system. China nowadays trying to rectify this, and more and more middle school kids realizing the alternative way in front of more and more expensive college.
Oh, and Chinese technicians also can find USA at the map.
09-20-2011, 11:12 PM
#17 s002wjh
Re: China's Education system compared to the USA
china's elementary-high school has its advantage, they learn a lot facts/mathematics, but the higher education in china can't compete with western universities. college student often copy each others test, homework, and lab result. even alot professor copy others research to get their jobs done. vs west who has better lab, internship, hand-on stuff. most chinese company won't even hire a college grad because none of them has any experence/knowledge in real world problem solving. given the chance, most chinese prefer send their kids to west for higher education
09-20-2011, 11:25 PM
#18 latenlazy
Re: DoD 2011 annual military report on china is out
Originally Posted by PanAsian
Not to sound like it's a conspiracy theory; the poor education in world history (including geography) that most Americans get conveniently allow the US elite to either put on a pedestal or demonize any country/culture/society/government and easily sell the message to its own people.
Funny you say that...my current seminar is making the point that the US puts more money into public education (especially secondary education) than any other industrialized country.
Originally Posted by delft
Does give high school political science insight into the question: how could politics in Washington DC become so dysfunctional? What else does it provide?
Yes...actually. If people actually paid attention in class.
给高中开的政治学课程使你洞悉了如下问题吗？…
实际上…可以的。如果人们当真用心听了这些课的话。
Originally Posted by s002wjh
china's elementary-high school has its advantage, they learn alot facts/mathematics, but the higher education in china can't compete with western universities. college student often copy each others test, homework, and lab result. even alot professor copy others research to get their jobs done. vs west who has better lab, internship, hand-on stuff. most chinese company won't even hire a college grad because none of them has any experence/knowledge in real world problem solving. given the chance, most chinese prefer send their kids to west for higher education
My cousin, a professor of linguistics in Beijing, laments this fact whenever we talk about the Chinese education system. It's also been noted by my professors in Fudan (some have made an attempt to change this).
09-21-2011, 12:08 AM
#19 s002wjh
Re: DoD 2011 annual military report on china is out
Originally Posted by latenlazy
My cousin, a professor of linguistics in Beijing, laments this fact whenever we talk about the Chinese education system. It's also been noted by my professors in Fudan (some have made an attempt to change this).
there are people in china who try to do their own work and have decent ethnic not to copy others work, but there just alot more people in china that will take the shortcut by, cheating/copy/. this condition overall make the others who try to do the right things shift their ways of doing things, in a bad way. education in china should include some ethnic/moral class in china and appropriate punishment for those who cheat/copy. university staff and students should do more so company who hire those kids after they graduate has faith in their knoweldge/experenice.
09-21-2011, 12:12 AM
#20 FriedRiceNSpice
Re: DoD 2011 annual military report on china is out
Originally Posted by vesicles
I don't think these schools are any good in terms of building your credentials. You may be able to find a job, but it's not going to get you into grad/med school or anything. And no one will care about those technology degrees, no matter where you are, China or the US.
I'm not talking about technical schools, I am talking about universities that specialize in science and engineering, i.e. like Harbin Institute of Technology and University of Science and Technology in China, which are both C9 schools. These are akin to MIT and Caltech.
09-21-2011, 12:14 AM
#21 bd popeye
The Last Jedi
Re: China's Education system compared to the USA
Transportation of students is part of the educational system. In China is is sometimes hazardous to place your child in the schools transportation system..
学生的通勤也是教育制度里的一部分。在中国，将你的孩子置于校车通勤的系统中，有时是一种历险。
More than 50 students were found riding in a large truck in Wuhua county, Meizhou, Guangdong Province on September 5. Photo: CFP
9月5日，广东梅州五华县，超过50名的学生被发现挤在一辆“大”卡车上。图片来自CFP
Bus zone - China News - SINA English
http://english.sina.com/china/p/2011/0919/398217.html
On September 13, as students returned to school after celebrating the Mid-Autumn Festival, Peng Yiwei and Chen Qingxue, two children from the Bauhinia Kindergarten in Jingzhou, Hubei Province, boarded a school bus at around 7 am. One teacher, Tan Zuhong, was also on the bus filled with children.
When the bus arrived at the kindergarten at about 8:30 am, Tan handed over the children to their teachers. The driver then parked the bus and went home to do his daily farm work.
But what nobody knew was that Peng and Chen, both at the age of four, were left on the bus. At 4 pm when the bus door reopened, the two had already stopped breathing.
Peng's parents rushed back from Guangdong Province only to see their daughter's body at the funeral parlor.
Liu Meihua, Peng's mother, wasn't able to fulfill her daughter's last wish bringing her a toy.
After the deaths, the Jingzhou government launched an intensive inspection on the school buses at all the schools in the district. As a result, four people were detained by the police, according to the Wuhan Evening News.
New start
Though the new semester is only three weeks underway, similar stories have already hit the headlines.
On August 29, a 3-year-old boy in Sanya, Hainan Province was suffocated after being left on a school bus for eight hours, the Nanguo Metropolis Daily reported.
On September 9, police in Qian'an, Hebei Province stopped a school bus with 64 kids squeezed in an eight-seat minivan, according to the Guangzhou-based Yangcheng Evening News.
These frequent incidents have sounded an alarm to the underdeveloped school bus system in China. Compared to the US, China has fallen far behind in school bus safety.
The US began to form its sound school bus design and system throughout the last century. The country sets specific standards on the manufacturing of school buses, and also provides the buses with more road privileges so as to always ensure the safety of its passengers.
The American School Bus Council, a school bus industry coalition, was established in 2006 to educate the public and lawmakers about the importance of school buses.
The problem has attracted the attention of the Chinese government.
As early as September 20, 2007, the Ministry of Education required teachers and drivers at preschools to count the number of kids every time they got on and off a school bus. The ministry also demanded that relevant authorities conduct inspections at regular intervals.
Referring to the US Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards, China issued its first compulsory national standard for school buses, which took effect July 1 last year.
The new standard requires all school buses be equipped with seatbelts and a vehicle data recorder. At least one seat must be reserved for the person in charge of students and their safety.
This year, the Zhengzhou Yutong Group Co. Ltd, one of the companies that created the national school bus standard, unveiled a bus modeled after the American "big nose" school buses. It is said to be the safest school bus in China.
The new bus costs more than 400,000 yuan ($62,640), and according to the company, more than 1,000 schools in China have bought one.
However, purchasing a new school bus will not solve every problem that comes with transporting children to school. The high operating cost of buses also remains a burden for schools, especially in underdeveloped areas.
On August 28, during his speech to rural teachers in Hebei Province, Premier Wen Jiabao promised to improve the school bus system in the central and western regions, the People's Daily reported.
Good example
Despite the various obstacles, Deqing county in East China's Zhejiang Province has so far been a model example for its use of school buses.
It became the first county in China to provide school bus service for an entire county, Zhang Fan, head of the safety division at the Deqing Education Bureau, told the Global Times.
Local authorities spent more than 20 million yuan ($3.13 million) on 79 new school buses, 14 of which are "big nose" school buses manufactured by the Yutong Group. The first buses went into operation at the end of 2009, said Zhang.
The bus service covers all primary schools within the county. A one-way ticket costs just one yuan ($0.16), while poorer students ride for free.
A public school bus company was simultaneously established to dispatch the buses. Furthermore, schools are not responsible for the expenses. The local government allocates more than 6 million yuan ($939,600) every year to cover any shortage of funds of the overall bus system, according to Zhang.
Bus drivers should have at least three years of experience driving a bus, and cannot have a history of drunk driving or mental illness on their records.
"At present, over one sixth of primary school students, about 6,000, ride our school buses every day. The number has been rising," said Zhang.
09-21-2011, 01:04 AM
#22 latenlazy
Re: DoD 2011 annual military report on china is out
Originally Posted by s002wjh
there are people in china who try to do their own work and have decent ethnic not to copy others work, but there just alot more people in china that will take the shortcut by, cheating/copy/. this condition overall make the others who try to do the right things shift their ways of doing things, in a bad way. education in china should include some ethnic/moral class in china and appropriate punishment for those who cheat/copy. university staff and students should do more so company who hire those kids after they graduate has faith in their knoweldge/experenice.
Well, the actual problem is probably in the rewards system, in the sense of what China rewards in its education. This primarily shows up in emphasis on testing results as opposed to critical thinking and argumentation, and process work.
09-21-2011, 01:34 AM
#23 vesicles
Re: China's Education system compared to the USA
Originally Posted by solarz
LOL, so explain why my dad's R&D department in Merck is almost exclusively Chinese?
There is a difference between researchers and researchers. Most of the technicians in labs are Chinese as well. Most of them can get work done beautifully. However, when it comes to creative thinking, they become a little stagnant. I think this is caused by the filtering effect of Chinese education system. Most of the creative people don't care too much about the boring education system in China and that makes them unable to compete with those who diligently obey orders and study hard for everything thrown their way. Not that there is anything wrong with studying hard. We need people like that to do work. In fact, there is a saying in the States about resumes that you shouldn't put your GPA on your CV if it is higher than 3.8/3.9 if you don't want to be stuck with boring work that nobody wants to do. With a insanely high GPA, you are automatically thought as the kind of person who don't mind doing boring work. Since no one else wants to do it, you are stuck with it. However, when it comes to creative and critical thinking, this kind of personality does not fit the bill.
Like I said in my last post, I've had classmate/labmates who have been educated in China. from what I can tell, they depend a lot more on their advisers in terms of getting ideas for their research projects. Postdocs/grad students should own their projects, which means we should carry the projects on our own and advisers should be only on the side and provide help when needed. A lot of times, my Chinese-educated colleagues go in to adviser's office and present the work they have done in the past week and then wait for orders about what to do next. That's why I said in the past post that some of them actually feel that they are like technicians. Yes, if you simply look at publications, most of the papers published in the States have Chinese authors, suggesting that most of the research have Chinese involvement. However, this can be misleading since no one knows how much of the original ideas of the research actually comes from each of the authors. Theoretically, the first author should be the one that has the most scientific and creative contribution to the study. However, most of the time, people simply give the 1st authorship to the person who does most of the bench work.
09-21-2011, 01:36 AM
#24 vesicles
Re: DoD 2011 annual military report on china is out
Originally Posted by FriedRiceNSpice
I'm not talking about technical schools, I am talking about universities that specialize in science and engineering, i.e. like Harbin Institute of Technology and University of Science and Technology in China, which are both C9 schools. These are akin to MIT and Caltech.
Those schools still need an insanely high overall score from all subjects to get in.
09-21-2011, 01:59 AM
#25 vesicles
Re: China's Education system compared to the USA
This actually brings up another topic, glass ceiling. It is well known that there is a glass ceiling for Chinese in the States. You don't see a lot of Chinese in executive positions in companies and universities in the US. So everyone automatically blame the potential discrimination against Chinese. I don't deny that at all. Let's face it, the American society is still a Caucasian-dominated one and all colored people face discrimination to some degree. However, there is another side of the story. Most of my Chinese friends and those I know in the States don't care so much about becoming an executive. When I asked them about becoming a manager, they simply say it's too much hassle and they simply want the easy way, which is to do work as told and be done with it. At the company where my wife works, one of her Chinese colleagues actually denied promotions to managerial positions TWICE! And then he would complain about all those who used be under him now become his superior...
Why is this happening? I think this also has something to do with the Chinese education system. As I have said many times, the people who would thrive in this kind of system have the kind of personality that likes to follow orders. Even for those who don't like following orders, they have to change their personality and be molded to become an obedient order-follower by the Chinese education system. It is these people who actually be able to come to the States since most of them have to PASS TESTS and get admitted to universities to come to the States. When they start working, they still feel comfortable in a position where they can simply follow orders and be told what to do.
Again, the same thing happens throughout history in China. Most of the people in commanding positions in Chinese history had been uneducated people. Most of those who got extensive education prefer to stay in a position to follow orders.
Simply put? Chinese education system is at fault.
09-21-2011, 02:00 AM
#26 solarz
Re: China's Education system compared to the USA
Originally Posted by vesicles
There is a difference between researchers and researchers. Most of the technicians in labs are Chinese as well. Most of them can get work done beautifully. However, when it comes to creative thinking, they become a little stagnant. I think this is caused by the filtering effect of Chinese education system. Most of the creative people don't care too much about the boring education system in China and that makes them unable to compete with those who diligently obey orders and study hard for everything thrown their way.
I think this effect, while certainly present, has been exaggerated. Spend a week in China and you will be amazed at how creative the Chinese are... at making money!
I think what's really happening is a perception of risk and the feeling of being in a foreign country/culture.
Any kind of creative initiative will always carry a certain risk, even if it's as benign as being rejected by one's superior (and thus resulting in a loss of face in Chinese thinking). Chinese employees who did not grow up in the Western culture (and even a good number of those who did) tend to be more risk-averse in the work place. That, more than anything else, is what I believe leads to this perception of "lack of creativity".
Originally Posted by vesicles
Like I said in my last post, I've had classmate/labmates who have been educated in China. from what I can tell, they depend a lot more on their advisers in terms of getting ideas for their research projects.
Perhaps it's not so much that they can't get ideas on their own, as they are trying to find out what kind of ideas would please their advisers? Or perhaps they think ideas given to them by their advisers are simply "better" for their resume than what they come up with on their own.
Originally Posted by vesicles
This actually brings up another topic, glass ceiling. It is well known that there is a glass ceiling for Chinese in the States. You don't see a lot of Chinese in executive positions in companies and universities in the US. So everyone automatically blame the potential discrimination against Chinese. I don't deny that at all. Let's face it, the American society is still a Caucasian-dominated one and all colored people face discrimination to some degree. However, there is another side of the story. Most of my Chinese friends and those I know in the States don't care so much about becoming an executive. When I asked them about becoming a manager, they simply say it's too much hassle and they simply want the easy way, which is to do work as told and be done with it. At the company where my wife works, one of her Chinese colleagues actually denied promotions to managerial positions TWICE! And then he would complain about all those who used be under him now become his superior...
My dad was in a manager role in Schering-Plough before it got acquired by Merck. With the merger, he got transferred to the R&D department as a senior scientist. He tells me that it's much easier working as a scientist than as a manager, and it's not because he's more at ease following orders. Indeed, the very reason that he came to North America is because he felt that he is unable to advance in a Chinese workplace.
The real issue at hand is simply language. Whenever my dad would ask a subordinate about why a job was done poorly, they would have a dozen perfectly "reasonable" explanations all argued more eloquently than my dad could ever manage to respond to. So it all ends up being more of a hassle than it's worth.
Last edited by solarz; 09-21-2011 at 02:09 AM.
09-21-2011, 02:09 AM
#27 vesicles
Re: China's Education system compared to the USA
Originally Posted by solarz
I think this effect, while certainly present, has been exaggerated. Spend a week in China and you will be amazed at how creative the Chinese are... at making money!
Yet, but not many of these people are in the States. And if you look at the background of these people, most of the creative people that you talk about in China are not that well educated at all. Some of them barely finished grade school. Like I said in my previous post, this happening throughout Chinese history. Most of the people in commanding positions have not been educated. The chinese education system for 2000 years has been discouraging creativity.
Note that I am NOT saying all Chinese are not creative. I am saying that the Chinese education system filters out creative people and does not allow them to thrive.
Originally Posted by solarz
Perhaps it's not so much that they can't get ideas on their own, as they are trying to find out what kind of ideas would please their advisers? Or perhaps they think ideas given to them by their advisers are simply "better" for their resume than what they come up with on their own.
that's exactly my point. Everyone can have original idea once in a while. While someone simply forget about the flashes of brilliance and go back to following orders, others would dare to challenge the authority and actually dare to put their ideas into action. It is these people who are seen as creative. It is the exact thought as you pointed out that have been drilled into most of the Chinese students' mind and cause them to be less creative.
Of course, being creative can be very hazardous. It means challenging the authority and making a lot of people angry. These people, of course, including those of your superiors. the Chinese education system punishes this kind of acts severely. I remember once when I was in grad school, I found this interesting phenomenon that, if confirmed, would prove my adviser's theory wrong. One of my labmates who came from China told me not to pursue it since this could potentially anger our adviser. He told me to simply continue with my original project. I thought about it and still decided to pursue that interesting finding. Of course, my adviser was not happy about being proven wrong. However, I have been branded as a creative researcher by my adviser. It is the courage to challenge the authority that makes a person creative and the Chinese education system punishes this kind of courage.
09-21-2011, 02:09 AM
#28 latenlazy
Re: China's Education system compared to the USA
Originally Posted by solarz
I think this effect, while certainly present, has been exaggerated. Spend a week in China and you will be amazed at how creative the Chinese are... at making money!
I think what's really happening is a perception of risk and the feeling of being in a foreign country/culture.
Any kind of creative initiative will always carry a certain risk, even if it's as benign as being rejected by one's superior (and thus resulting in a loss of face in Chinese thinking). Chinese employees who did not grow up in the Western culture (and even a good number of those who did) tend to be more risk-averse in the work place. That, more than anything else, is what I believe leads to this perception of "lack of creativity".
Perhaps it's not so much that they can't get ideas on their own, as they are trying to find out what kind of ideas would please their advisers? Or perhaps they think ideas given to them by their advisers are simply "better" for their resume than what they come up with on their own.
...Sorry, but as someone who has both studied in China, and someone who has talked to people who teach in China, this phenomena is for real. That's not to say everyone in a Chinese secondary institution exhibits this tendency, but to my knowledge and experience it is far more prominent in China than the US. Like vesicles said, it's not that they're not capable of creative thinking, but instead are not trained to recognize, develop, and utilize creative thinking processes.
09-21-2011, 02:14 AM
#29 solarz
Re: China's Education system compared to the USA
Originally Posted by vesicles
Yet, not many of these people are in the States. And if you look at the background of these people, most of the creative people that you talk about in China are not that well educated at all.
Note that I am NOT saying all Chinese are not creative. I am saying that the Chinese education system filters out creative people and does not allow them to thrive.
that's exactly my point. Everyone can have original idea once in a while. While someone simply forget about the flashes of brilliance and go back to following orders, others would dare to challenge the authority and actually dare to put their ideas into action. It is these people who are seen as creative. It is the exact thought as you pointed out that have been drilled into most of the Chinese students' mind and cause them to be less creative.
Not necessarily. Chinese university students are often amazingly creative... at cheating on their exams.
Perhaps a more accurate description would be that the Chinese education system does not adequately channel the creativity of its students. That is different from the idea that the student's creativity is "stifled", as those same students that you describe as "uncreative" would amaze you with their creativity if you put them in an environment where they can feel safe and self-confident.
09-21-2011, 02:21 AM
#30 latenlazy
Re: China's Education system compared to the USA
Originally Posted by solarz
Not necessarily. Chinese university students are often amazingly creative... at cheating on their exams.
Perhaps a more accurate description would be that the Chinese education system does not adequately channel the creativity of its students. That is different from the idea that the student's creativity is "stifled", as those same students that you describe as "uncreative" would amaze you with their creativity if you put them in an environment where they can feel safe and self-confident.
Well, that kind of creativity is very...technical...and honestly not very hard. Besides, cheating of the sort is only really effective for multiple choice, mathematical problems, and short answers. Cheating on writing...is very difficult, and impractical in a test, and practically impossible on a project.
The real challenge is abstract and constructive creativity, which is usually what's needed for success at the graduate and postgraduate levels. The Chinese education system is simply not very conducive to that.
Last edited by latenlazy; 09-21-2011 at 02:25 AM.
09-21-2011, 01:24 AM #31 solarz
Re: China's Education system compared to the USA
Originally Posted by latenlazy
...Sorry, but as someone who has both studied in China, and someone who has talked to people who teach in China, this phenomena is for real. That's not to say everyone in a Chinese secondary institution exhibits this tendency, but to my knowledge and experience it is far more prominent in China than the US. Like vesicles said, it's not that they're not capable of creative thinking, but instead are not trained to recognize, develop, and utilize creative thinking processes.
Not to belittle your personal experience, but has these same educators who bemoan the lack of creativity asked the question: "what are the rewards of creativity?"
Like I said before, all creative initiatives are inherently risky. So if the system does not institute any rewards for being creative, why should the students take that risk?
I also do not believe that creativity can be "stifled". It is no more credible than the idea that intelligence can be "dumbed down". People simply express their creativity in other, safer, situations, such as hobbies.
09-21-2011, 01:33 AM
#32 vesicles
Re: China's Education system compared to the USA
Originally Posted by solarz
Not necessarily. Chinese university students are often amazingly creative... at cheating on their exams.
Perhaps a more accurate description would be that the Chinese education system does not adequately channel the creativity of its students. That is different from the idea that the student's creativity is "stifled", as those same students that you describe as "uncreative" would amaze you with their creativity if you put them in an environment where they can feel safe and self-confident.
Of course, when ensured safety, everyone can be creative. Everyone of us day-dreams about stuff without much fear. However, it is what you do when facing actual fear of being punished that actually counts. We often hear stories about how pioneers holding their ideas firm when challenged by authority while others simply giving it up even at the thought of being challenged.
09-21-2011, 01:36 AM
#33 latenlazy
Re: China's Education system compared to the USA
Originally Posted by solarz
Not to belittle your personal experience, but has these same educators who bemoan the lack of creativity asked the question: "what are the rewards of creativity?"
Yes...in fact my cousin the linguist professor is actively trying to change the way in which kids are taught, in particular language, but also more broadly in other subjects. He's trying to demonstrate the rewards of creative thinking. For example, kids in China learn English from kindergarten to college, but relatively few make it passed the basic 6th grade level because too much value is placed into learning the grammar mechanics and not enough is put into reading comprehension, critical thinking of the material, and creative writing. In this case, the rewards for non-linear thinking is critical for greater language acquisition. However, a system that's geared towards one kind of tutelage makes adopting new methods somewhat difficult.
Like I said before, all creative initiatives are inherently risky. So if the system does not institute any rewards for being creative, why should the students take that risk?
Of course, but that is the problem isn't it? At some point, if you're not taught how to develop and process creative thinking, you won't be able to use or recognize it even when it becomes advantageous. Useful thinking isn't sui generis to individuals, but is taught to us.
I also do not believe that creativity can be "stifled". It is no more credible than the idea that intelligence can be "dumbed down". People simply express their creativity in other, safer, situations, such as hobbies.
Well, whether you believe it or not...cognitively skills we don't use atrophy. They don't disappear per say, but they end up underutilized and underdeveloped. Never underestimate the effects of educational institutions in shaping the ways in which people think. If you've grown up being trained to think in one way, that's the way you're going to think unless taught to think otherwise.
Also, you might want to be careful in discussing what "intelligence" is and how it's determined. It's a controversial topic in academia, and some significant work has been put into demonstrating how it's often defined in a social context as opposed to being a measure of innate cognitive ability (and this is the most I will say on this subject, the thing gets tricky relatively quickly).
09-21-2011, 01:38 AM
#34 vesicles
Re: China's Education system compared to the USA
Originally Posted by solarz
Not to belittle your personal experience, but has these same educators who bemoan the lack of creativity asked the question: "what are the rewards of creativity?"
Like I said before, all creative initiatives are inherently risky. So if the system does not institute any rewards for being creative, why should the students take that risk?
I also do not believe that creativity can be "stifled". It is no more credible than the idea that intelligence can be "dumbed down". People simply express their creativity in other, safer, situations, such as hobbies.
It sounds like you are agreeing with me. If creative initiatives are not rewarded, then there is something wrong with the system??
I think creativity can be stifled. If someone has to channel their creativity to hobbies, I would say their creativity is definitely stifled. If someone's brilliant ideas that could potentially change the world cannot be carried out, then it's been stifled...
09-21-2011, 01:51 AM
#35 vesicles
Re: China's Education system compared to the USA
this makes me think.. A bunch of elementary school students in London studied bees and actually published their work in a prominent biology journal (not the best with an impact factor of 3.7, but it is still a high-impact journal that most professional scientists would like to publish as any journal with an impact factor at/above 3.5 is considered as high impact).
Blackawton bees
As you can see, instead of attempting to make the study look elegant, the teacher decided to let the students design the experiments, carry out the study and write the paper on their own and only provided advise and corrected grammar errors (of course, the teacher wrote the abstract). So the whole paper does not sound professional at all and reads like an elementary school project. this is how it is supposed to be done, in terms of training students to be creative.
I can imagine how a similar thing could be done in China. In order to make things look nice, teachers might end up doing most of the work. On top of that, the study might not be published at all and might even be laughed at. Fear of failure is a big reason for "stifled" creativity.
Last edited by vesicles; 09-21-2011 at 02:00 AM.
09-21-2011, 01:54 AM
#36 latenlazy
Re: China's Education system compared to the USA
Originally Posted by vesicles
this makes me think.. A bunch of elementary school students in London studied bees and actually published their work in a prominent biology journal.
Blackawton bees
As you can see, instead of attempting to make the study look elegant, the teacher decided to let the students design the experiments, carry out the study and write the paper on their own and only provided advise and corrected grammar errors. So the whole paper does not sound professional at all and reads like an elementary school project. this is how it is supposed to be done, in terms of training students to be creative.
I can imagine how a similar thing could be done in China. In order to make things look nice, teachers might end up doing most of the work. On top of that, the study might not be published at all and might even be laughed at. Fear of failure is a big reason for "stifled" creativity.
Good luck convincing parents in China that this will help their kids succeed :P. The linear learning test taking mentality is a tough one to break culturally.
But yes, that would be one way to incorporate creative thinking into the education system. Another way would be to encourage critical thinking, asking questions and arguing for and against ideas. However, I sometimes wonder if that type of teaching style is politically sensitive on the mainland...
09-21-2011, 02:02 AM
#37 vesicles
Re: China's Education system compared to the USA
Originally Posted by latenlazy
Good luck convincing parents in China that this will help their kids succeed :P. The linear learning test taking mentality is a tough one to break culturally.
that's the sad part. Chinese parents in the States still maintain the same habit and want the same thing for their kids.
9-21-2011, 02:04 AM
#38 s002wjh
Re: China's Education system compared to the USA
the things is most student in china just want to take a short cuts, that often mean cheat/copy. i guess when everyone is doing it, if you are not doing it, you will lift behind. also in a society where intellectual property are not enforced well, even those who create something new will be copied instantly.
09-21-2011, 02:04 AM
#39 latenlazy
Re: China's Education system compared to the USA
Originally Posted by vesicles
that's the sad part. Chinese parents in the States still maintain the same habit and want the same thing for their kids.
I recently had to point this out to my parents, who have raised me and my sister in a mixed sense. They can be pretty hands off, but they still get frustrated when my sister doesn't listen to direct commands. Kids raised in the US are taught that every order needs to be backed by a reason, as in school. XD
Originally Posted by s002wjh
the things is most student in china just want to take a short cuts, that often mean cheat/copy. also in a society where intellectual property are not enforced well, even those who create something new will be copied instantly.
That is probably a effect of an emphasis on achieving testing results, as opposed to being able to demonstrate independent thinking.
09-21-2011, 02:12 AM
#40 solarz
Re: China's Education system compared to the USA
Originally Posted by vesicles
It sounds like you are agreeing with me. If creative initiatives are not rewarded, then there is something wrong with the system??
I think creativity can be stifled. If someone has to channel their creativity to hobbies, I would say their creativity is definitely stifled. If someone's brilliant ideas that could potentially change the world cannot be carried out, then it's been stifled...
Ehh... I don't think my creativity is being stifled when I channel it in my hobbies. I also have a bunch of ideas for improving society in general, but it's never going to be carried out because I don't have the resource to do so, nor the inclination to convince enough people to do it with me. That doesn't mean my creativity has been stifled.
I agree that a good system should reward creativity just as it rewards hard work. However, what I am objecting to is the idea that the Chinese education system is responsible for Chinese students not being creative in the work place. The Chinese education system is a product of Chinese culture, and the same system that does not reward creativity in school isn't going to reward it in the work place either!
I wonder how many of those companies in China who bemoan the lack of creativity took a good look at their organization and see if their company structure is set up to allow the kind of creativity that they say they would like to see.
09-21-2011, 02:18 AM
#41 latenlazy
Re: China's Education system compared to the USA
Originally Posted by solarz
I agree that a good system should reward creativity just as it rewards hard work. However, what I am objecting to is the idea that the Chinese education system is responsible for Chinese students not being creative in the work place. The Chinese education system is a product of Chinese culture, and the same system that does not reward creativity in school isn't going to reward it in the work place either!
Cultures do change, and a great place to start is often the education system
我认同某些制度应该奖励创造性，正如同它奖励勤奋工作。但是，我反对这种…
文化是会发生变迁的，而且大的转变往往从教育制度开始。
I wonder how many of those companies in China who bemoan the lack of creativity took a good look at their organization and see if their company structure is set up to allow the kind of creativity that they say they would like to see.
It has been a big trend recently as Chinese companies try to find ways to innovate and be globally competitive actually.
09-21-2011, 02:19 AM
#42 vesicles
Re: China's Education system compared to the USA
Originally Posted by solarz
The real issue at hand is simply language. Whenever my dad would ask a subordinate about why a job was done poorly, they would have a dozen perfectly "reasonable" explanations all argued more eloquently than my dad could ever manage to respond to. So it all ends up being more of a hassle than it's worth.
Yes, this is one of the excuses. Like your dad, my dad actually also uses this as an excuse. It's amazing that my dad thinks so much like your dad. After getting his Ph.D. in Chemistry, he thought about becoming a professor. With several offers in his hands including a faculty position, he decided to take a Senior Chemist position at Texas Dept of Agriculture. One of his reasons was his English. Then he got several opportunities to get promoted and become the lab manager. Again, he refused because the exact reasoning as your dad explained. He's more worried about his English. And my mom who is a nuclear chemist, does not even dare to look for a job when she came to the State 20 years ago because of her English. In fact, her English is not that bad compared to some of the Chinese technicians now working for me. Then there is one of my wife's uncles, who speaks English that no one can understand. He is a successful professor in Michigan. So to me, these things are mere excuses. If you truly want to do it, you WILL overcome all kinds of difficulties.
09-21-2011, 02:31 AM
#43 plawolf
Re: China's Education system compared to the USA
Originally Posted by Red___Sword
wolf, you damn should run for President!
Be it a university or an Oceanian state, not sure you can run for the US of A though. (It is STILL a compliment)
Haha, well you are far too kind!
09-21-2011, 02:32 AM
#44 plawolf
Re: China's Education system compared to the USA
Originally Posted by bd popeye
Transportation of students is part of the educational system. In China is is sometimes hazardous to place your child in the schools transportation system..
Well, I think the fact that that story made such headlines in China highlights that this is far from normal practice.
09-21-2011, 02:33 AM
#45 vesicles
Re: China's Education system compared to the USA
Originally Posted by solarz
Ehh... I don't think my creativity is being stifled when I channel it in my hobbies. I also have a bunch of ideas for improving society in general, but it's never going to be carried out because I don't have the resource to do so, nor the inclination to convince enough people to do it with me. That doesn't mean my creativity has been stifled.
See? That's my exact point. While you think you don't have the resources to carry out your ideas, another person might dedicate his/her life trying to put these ideas into action. these would be the kind of people who eventually become presidents and might change the society as they initially intended.
09-21-2011, 02:49 AM 龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com
#46 bd popeye龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com
Re: China's Education system compared to the USA龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com
Originally Posted by plawolf
Well, I think the fact that that story made such headlines in China highlights that this is far from normal practice.
Unfortunately there are crashes of vehicles carring children to and from school. I've posted several of those unfortunate stories in the Chinese Daily Photos, Videos & News!!
09-21-2011, 03:12 AM
#47 plawolf
Re: China's Education system compared to the USA
Originally Posted by vesicles
There is a difference between researchers and researchers. Most of the technicians in labs are Chinese as well. Most of them can get work done beautifully. However, when it comes to creative thinking, they become a little stagnant. I think this is caused by the filtering effect of Chinese education system. Most of the creative people don't care too much about the boring education system in China and that makes them unable to compete with those who diligently obey orders and study hard for everything thrown their way. Not that there is anything wrong with studying hard.
I think that while it is true that there does appear to be a lack of creativity and original thinking in those who have gone through the education system in China, it is to a much less degree than what you seem to think, and I also disagree about the cause.
I have to agree with Solarz here Vesicles, a lot of the time, those Chinese researchers are not asking because they do not know what to do next, but they are asking to get re-affirmation from their superiors that what they are doing is what is desired. It is partly a lack of confidence, as I observed before, but also part cultural, as they do not want to appear to be a hothead upstart who does not care about the views and ideas of their superiors/elders. There might also be some bad habits from passing exams mixed in, as school children who ask the most questions most often tend to do better at exams than the more independent sort who prefer to go it alone and come up with their own ideas and solutions.
This effect is amplified in the Chinese, extreme pressure, huge classroom style of teaching. The students are under so much pressure that the most time efficient method of studying is to just take what the teacher tells you as the absolute truth and learn that instead of questioning it, challenging it and figuring out why that is the case, because the student simply have too much workload to spare too much time on such 'idle' thinking, and the teachers tend to have too many students to teach to properly explain things even if a student did ask such questions.
This brings us neatly onto the real reason I see as the cause of this lack of imagination and creativity - the pressures placed on the students and the habits they foster.
As I mentioned in the previous post, I admire western high-school education precisely because it promotes students to not only learn why something is the way it is, but most critically, to question why that is the cast, and thus gain a far more in-depth understanding and this generates real interest in a subject, and is a key stepping stone to developing good independent analytical and creative skills, and such preparation is great at equipping students with the critical studying skills needed to make the most of their university education and working lift after formal education.
Sadly, that is something that I feel the Chinese education system could improve massively on.
I think that the current system would be acceptable up to secondary school, as by that time, pretty much all the students would have an extremely solid foundation of a very wide range of key knowledge and world-beating literacy and numeracy skills.
High school in China should be reformed to follow the western approach, whereby the students are taught and encouraged to think critically and creatively and independently to make the transition to university life much less extreme, and also to given them more confidence to think critically and creatively as well as to seize the initiative.
However, the sad reality of the fact is that sweeping educational reform in China is very unlikely because of the amazing results attained. China ranked first in all fields in the most recent Programme for International Students Assessment (PISA) rankings.
Would anyone consider sweeping changes to a system that seem to work so 'well' at present? Especially since the changes I have in mind will probably be pretty expensive to implement, and may well actually local China's scores and rankings, if only initially.
All too many Chinese parents are sadly falling into the misconception that western universities are somehow better at fostering creativity and gives a better education and spend exorbitant amounts of money to send their children abroad so that they might receive this 'superior' education.
However, IMHO, it is high school that makes the critical difference, and western universities do not differ all that much in the way they run their programmes as Chinese universities. If anything, sending the child alone and to a completely foreign culture with only mediocre english language skills tend to exaggerate the already large difference between high school education in China and university life, and amplify the already well noted tendency for oriental students to be shy and passive, and thus can be far more harmful for the child's healthy development and education than if they had just gone to university in China.
I think if children are to travel abroad for a western education, they should either go early, at high school and stay till university, or they should go later, for a masters or PHD, MBA, when they have had time to adapt to the massive change in educational style in a much more familiar cultural and language environment.
09-21-2011, 03:15 AM
#48 solarz
Re: China's Education system compared to the USA
Originally Posted by vesicles
If you truly want to do it, you WILL overcome all kinds of difficulties.
If the manager position carried a significantly higher salary, then I'm sure my dad wouldn't mind arguing with those guys all day long. However, it doesn't, so in the end, it's easier to be just a scientist.
I disagree that it's an excuse. How many managers and senior executives do you know speaks poor English? Language is a real barrier.
I learned English when I was 8, French when I was 11. I spent grades 4 to 11 in French schools, yet I feel much more comfortable expressing myself in English than in French. If I had to use French explain to an irate boss why my department was behind schedule, I wouldn't bet on my chances of promotion.
Keep in mind that we're talking about manager positions and not technical positions. Being a successful manager is all about effective communication. Having a less-than-fluent proficiency in the language puts you at a severe disadvantage in that area.
Originally Posted by vesicles
See? That's my exact point. While you think you don't have the resources to carry out your ideas, another person might dedicate his/her life trying to put these ideas into action. these would be the kind of people who eventually become presidents and might change the society as they initially intended.
So you're saying Obama is more creative than I am? I'm gonna have to disagree with your definition of "creative" then.
09-21-2011, 03:37 AM
#49 vesicles
Re: China's Education system compared to the USA
Originally Posted by solarz
So you're saying Obama is more creative than I am? I'm gonna have to disagree with your definition of "creative" then.
No, I'm saying American society encourages people like Obama to pursue his goals/dreams while Chinese society doesn't.
09-21-2011, 03:43 AM
#50 plawolf
Re: China's Education system compared to the USA
Originally Posted by vesicles
No, I'm saying American society encourages people like Obama to pursue his goals/dreams while Chinese society doesn't.
That is a bit rich. HuJinTao came from a very poor family and was in fact an adopted orphan.
When was the last time anyone with such humble beginnings became even a senator or congressman in the US, let alone president?
Political office is only an aspiration the rich can dream of in the west. For all its flaws, China's system is far more inclusive.
不，我的意思是说美国社会鼓励像奥巴马那样的人去追逐梦想，而中国社会相反。
说得倒是好听。胡core出身于一个贫穷的家庭，事实上他是一名被收养的孤儿。
你上次听说有出身卑微的人成为参众两院的议员是什么时候的事情了？更不必说成为总统了。
在西方，从政只是富人可以为之一梦的热望。尽管存在各种缺陷，中国的制度远比西方更为包容。
Red___Sword and Equation like this.
09-21-2011, 03:55 AM
#51 vesicles
Re: China's Education system compared to the USA
Originally Posted by plawolf
I think that while it is true that there does appear to be a lack of creativity and original thinking in those who have gone through the education system in China, it is to a much less degree than what you seem to think, and I also disagree about the cause.
I have to agree with Solarz here Vesicles, a lot of the time, those Chinese researchers are not asking because they do not know what to do next, but they are asking to get re-affirmation from their superiors that what they are doing is what is desired. It is partly a lack of confidence, as I observed before, but also part cultural, as they do not want to appear to be a hothead upstart who does not care about the views and ideas of their superiors/elders. There might also be some bad habits from passing exams mixed in, as school children who ask the most questions most often tend to do better at exams than the more independent sort who prefer to go it alone and come up with their own ideas and solutions.
This effect is amplified in the Chinese, extreme pressure, huge classroom style of teaching. The students are under so much pressure that the most time efficient method of studying is to just take what the teacher tells you as the absolute truth and learn that instead of questioning it, challenging it and figuring out why that is the case, because the student simply have too much workload to spare too much time on such 'idle' thinking, and the teachers tend to have too many students to teach to properly explain things even if a student did ask such questions.
I think you are talking about the cause for this lack of creativity, be it fear of offending superiors, lack of confidence, too much pressure. At the end of the day, it is still shown as lack of creativity.
Originally Posted by plawolf
High school in China should be reformed to follow the western approach, whereby the students are taught and encouraged to think critically and creatively and independently to make the transition to university life much less extreme, and also to given them more confidence to think critically and creatively as well as to seize the initiative.
However, the sad reality of the fact is that sweeping educational reform in China is very unlikely because of the amazing results attained. China ranked first in all fields in the most recent Programme for International Students Assessment (PISA) rankings.
Would anyone consider sweeping changes to a system that seem to work so 'well' at present? Especially since the changes I have in mind will probably be pretty expensive to implement, and may well actually local China's scores and rankings, if only initially.
Agreed. Another factor is population. Way too many students and not enough universities. As pressure of getting into colleges mounts, it is inevitable that some people will begin to focus exclusively on tests since it is always the tests that is the most important and hardcore criteria. Once someone starts doing it, everyone will have no choice but to follow suit.
Originally Posted by plawolf
All too many Chinese parents are sadly falling into the misconception that western universities are somehow better at fostering creativity and gives a better education and spend exorbitant amounts of money to send their children abroad so that they might receive this 'superior' education.
However, IMHO, it is high school that makes the critical difference, and western universities do not differ all that much in the way they run their programmes as Chinese universities. If anything, sending the child alone and to a completely foreign culture with only mediocre english language skills tend to exaggerate the already large difference between high school education in China and university life, and amplify the already well noted tendency for oriental students to be shy and passive, and thus can be far more harmful for the child's healthy development and education than if they had just gone to university in China.
I think if children are to travel abroad for a western education, they should either go early, at high school and stay till university, or they should go later, for a masters or PHD, MBA, when they have had time to adapt to the massive change in educational style in a much more familiar cultural and language environment.
Agreed. Most of the Western universities are mostly hands-off. Once you are in college, you are on your own. No one will tell you when to study, when to go to bed, when to go to class, etc. In my first semester in college, I missed about 90% of my 8 o'clock classes because I couldn't get up that early after partying all night. All in all, it's not a good place to form good habit if you don't already have one. On the other hand, it is a place for acquiring all sorts of bad habits. With all the partying, girls, drugs, alcohol, etc., it becomes so easy to get lost.
09-21-2011, 04:01 AM
#52 vesicles
Re: China's Education system compared to the USA
Originally Posted by plawolf
That is a bit rich. HuJinTao came from a very poor family and was in fact an adopted orphan.
When was the last time anyone with such humble beginnings became even a senator or congressman in the US, let alone president?
Political office is only an aspiration the rich can dream of in the west. For all its flaws, China's system is far more inclusive.
I think what happens in China's political system nowadays is unique only in China. This is because CCP favors those with poor family background. When Hu was a youngster, most people in the elite wealthy families had been persecuted by the CCP as the enemy of the people. Most of them could not even join the military as none of them was trusted and was viewed as enemies. I can hardly believe that any of them could become officials
09-21-2011, 04:08 AM
#53 solarz
Re: China's Education system compared to the USA
Originally Posted by vesicles
No, I'm saying American society encourages people like Obama to pursue his goals/dreams while Chinese society doesn't.
That begs the question: are you saying Obama is creative because he pursued the US presidency? To me, that isn't so much a matter of creativity as a matter of dedication and perseverance.
Creativity is more about "creating" something new, whether that's a piece of art or a new mathematical model, or even a new way of making money.
09-21-2011, 06:06 AM
#54 vesicles
Re: China's Education system compared to the USA
Originally Posted by solarz
That begs the question: are you saying Obama is creative because he pursued the US presidency? To me, that isn't so much a matter of creativity as a matter of dedication and perseverance.
Creativity is more about "creating" something new, whether that's a piece of art or a new mathematical model, or even a new way of making money.
Well, you brought up Obama and I was simply responding to your comments.
BTW, I think being creative is more than just coming up with new things. It means thinking of things in a different way away from the norm. In that sense, Obama would be considered creative if he can think of a unique way of solving the medicare/social security issues. or Obama, when he was little, believed that, as an African American, he actually had a chance of becoming a president. that kind of thought would be creative.
And dedication and perseverance only come after someone comes up with a creative idea and tries to put this idea into action.
09-21-2011, 08:51 AM
#55 bladerunner
Re: China's Education system compared to the USA
Talking about seeing things in a different manner, Ive always wondered about the different approch to painting, practiced by Western painters and their Asian counterparts.
While Western painters made the jump from to 2D to a 3dimensional world from the Renaissance Period, Asian art kept to the 2D format. Can anyone offer any cultural explanation as to why this was so.
09-21-2011, 11:06 AM
#57 kyanges
Re: China's Education system compared to the USA
If we're interpreting the art thing through a cultural lens, here's an amusing thought exercise. So obviously Western art and East Asian art had their own approaches to the same problem of representing 3 dimensions on a 2D paper.
One went for the linear perspective, while in the latter, perspective is either explicitly avoided, or when practical representation is required, the isometric view is more prevalent. One is about representing only what the eye normally sees, as accurately as possible, in a strict and rigid rectangular window and from a fixed vantage point. The other is no less focused on precision or accuracy, but at the same time, it tries to shift things into a view that the eye doesn't normally see, with all perspectives scaled equally.
What does that say about their respective world views?
Last edited by kyanges; 09-21-2011 at 10:20 PM.
09-21-2011, 11:55 AM
#58 Red___Sword
Re: China's Education system compared to the USA
Originally Posted by kyanges
If we're interpreting the art thing through a cultural lens, here's an amusing thought exercise. So obviously Western art and East Asian art had their own approaches to the same problem or representing 3 dimensions on a 2D paper.
One went for the linear perspective, while in the latter, perspective is either explicitly avoided, or when practical representation is required, the isometric view is more prevalent. One is about representing only what the eye normally sees, as accurately as possible, in a strict and rigid rectangular window and from a fixed vantage point. The other is no less focused on precision or accuracy, but at the same time, it tries to shift things into a view that the eye doesn't normally see, with all perspectives scaled equally.
What does that say about their respective world views?
One missionary, One comprehenary. (rhyme?)
09-21-2011, 01:52 PM
#59 bladerunner
Re: China's Education system compared to the USA
Originally Posted by no_name
Does this look 2D to you?:
在你看来，这是2D的吗？
Yes it does, actually they all do. Kyanges gives the reasons to which Ill add to.
Some of the pictures have no or a flat background eg the flowers and that tree thingy
The figures appear to be floating
No Cast shadow
Some of the background buildings and figures are the samesize as the foreground figures
Lack of Vanishing point or a Horizon line in other words they lack Alberti's sense of perspective
(Alberti was regarded as the originator of perspective drawing in European art)
As Kayanges said the subject is the essence rather than what the eye really sees and perhaps this still applies in Asian thinking in the arts, general study?
Well what ever the reason is, it must have been pretty powerful for no pre European contact Asian in thousands oy years to thinkarggghhh to heck with it Im gonna paint what my eye really sees.
Just something slightly different
From what Ive seen in Asian paintings, the more important the figure in the painting /drawing the larger it is compared to the people around him/her. For instance in paintings of Mao in groups of people he appears sligtly larger, and compare that with paintings of say George Washington where there isn't really anything to make him standout from his fellow revolutionists.
是，它就是2D的，它们都是。Kyanges所说的原因就是我要补充的。
一些图片没有背景，或者背景是平坦的，比如花和树之类的。
人物看起来像漂浮的
没有投影
一些远景上的建筑物和人物和近景的大小相同
没有消失点和地平线，换句话说缺乏阿尔贝蒂的透视感。
(阿尔贝蒂被视作欧洲艺术中透视画法的创始人)
正如Kyanges所说，亚洲艺术的本质是表现主题，而非眼睛所见。也许这一点至今仍被应用在亚洲的艺术思考和总体研究中？
Well what ever the reason is，it must have been pretty powerful for no pre European contact Asian in thousands oy years to thinkarggghhh to heck with it Im gonna paint what my eye really sees.
这只是些细微的区别
从我观看过的亚洲绘画中所见，人物越是重要，画得就越比周围其他人大。比如说描写毛在人民群众中的绘画，他就显得略大。相比较之下，描写乔治华盛顿的绘画就没有特意使他在革命伙伴中显得出众。
09-21-2011, 03:04 PM
#60 defaultuser1
Re: China's Education system compared to the USA
Originally Posted by plawolf
Political office is only an aspiration the rich can dream of in the west. For all its flaws, China's system is far more inclusive.
I'm sorry, but this is the most ridiculous statement I've ever read on this site. I don't think there's a single country in the world with a political system that can be deemed inclusive and equal. The farther up the chain of command you go, the less inclusive it is and the more of a good old boys club it is. To reach the highest political offices, you have to know a guy and know many guys. Doesn't matter if it's China or the U.S.
Originally Posted by bladerunner
While Western painters made the jump from to 2D to a 3dimensional world from the Renaissance Period, Asian art kept to the 2D format. Can anyone offer any cultural explanation as to why this was so.
What?
This is good reading.
http://libweb.uoregon.edu/ec/e-asia/read/artpers.pdf
09-21-2011, 04:59 PM
#62 bladerunner
Re: China's Education system compared to the USA
Originally Posted by defaultuser1
What?
This is good reading.
http://libweb.uoregon.edu/ec/e-asia/read/artpers.pdf
Thanks it was interesting. However light and shadow also adds to a feeling of depth. Thats something one doesn't see in the ist photo consisting of a bunch of flowers from No-name 's provided kalidescope of Chinese art in post 56. Now imagine that with the traditional painting of still life such as that bowl of fruit that we in the WEst who have been told to paint /draw during school art classes.
09-21-2011, 05:19 PM
#63 bladerunner
Re: China's Education system compared to the USA
Still banging on about art, but heres atrue story on how Asian art student was studying painting as one of her entrance subjects to gain university admission to study architecture.
Her task was to submit a finished piece of work of modern painting. (some sort of ism I forgot which) Because the painting included Chinese writing she was given a non pass mark,and subsequently failed to get into architecture school.
The problem was that the markers had to interpret the painting and any words/writing has to have some intergral part of the painting.None of the markers knew Chinese, so she was deemed to not meet the criteria despite the fact that the painting was a brilliant piece of work, according to my wife.
09-21-2011, 10:24 PM
#64 kyanges
Re: China's Education system compared to the USA
Originally Posted by bladerunner
From what Ive seen in Asian paintings, the more important the figure in the painting /drawing the larger it is compared to the people around him/her. For instance in paintings of Mao in groups of people he appears sligtly larger, and compare that with paintings of say George Washington where there isn't really anything to make him standout from his fellow revolutionists.
That's called hierarchical scale, and it's present in everything from cave paintings, to ancient Egyptian art, to Greek, comic books, and yes, even communist propaganda. :P .
09-22-2011, 01:29 AM
#65 vesicles
Re: China's Education system compared to the USA
I would suggest that we stay away from art since art is a completely subjective matter. Also that we are arguing about the Chinese education system, not whether Chinese as a culture are creative. We know for a fact that Chinese are as creative as any people in the world. Simply look around, you'll find many everyday-things inspired by Chinese inventions throughout history. That's not what we are arguing!
09-22-2011, 03:34 AM
#66 kyanges
Re: China's Education system compared to the USA
Originally Posted by vesicles
Simply look around, you'll find many everyday-things inspired by Chinese inventions throughout history. That's not what we are arguing!
Like what exactly?
Also I disagree that art is completely subjective. There are clear principles, guides, techniques and concepts behind not only what makes up a work of art, but also what would make a work of art "good". Styles may change over time, but that change itself displays a clear progression of technical skill and understanding.
That said, I agree that it's quite a tangent. I'll stop commenting on the art thing until it's relevant again.
09-22-2011, 04:49 AM
#67 vesicles
Re: China's Education system compared to the USA
Originally Posted by kyanges
Like what exactly?
Let's see... What about gun powder, compass, paper making, printing?
09-22-2011, 05:41 AM
#69 no_name
Re: China's Education system compared to the USA
Lack of (or difference in) perspective seems to be the case with some of the technical drawings too, giving a somewhat uncommon view.
缺乏(或者说有差异)透视的现象看来在一些技术图纸中也存在，给出一个比较少见的图。
As for landscape and street scenes I feel the perspective chosen is an effort to present a panorama view of the scenes.
Also perhapse they feel that lightning/shadows is somewhat arbitrary dependent on many factor so simply don't include them or just assume the object is illuminated equally from all direction to represent what they feel is the most objective representation of the object itself.
09-22-2011, 09:34 AM
#70 bladerunner
Re: China's Education system compared to the USA
Originally Posted by kyanges
Like what exactly?
Also I disagree that art is completely subjective. There are clear principles, guides, techniques and concepts behind not only what makes up a work of art, but also what would make a work of art "good". Styles may change over time, but that change itself displays a clear progression of technical skill and understanding.
That said, I agree that it's quite a tangent. I'll stop commenting on the art thing until it's relevant again.
I agree with you 100%. Perhaps Vesicles is just indulging in a bit of academic snobbery. Besides, better study habits and a higher intensity in teaching has been discussed in many a thread.
Not all Chinese students study the sciences, some do humanities which also involve some subjectivity.while others study the arts, especially design/product design, animation, etc. As the standard for that area of study pretty much sucks so I'm told. Some also go on to study architecture.
We have in this thread discussed the difficulty Chinese students encounter as they transition from a Chinese educational background to a Western one especially, when they are required to express their ideas in a group discussion
However these students have an added problem. While maths, biology, chemistry, physics, is the same in anybody's language, not so the creative arts/design, where the Chinese/ or non Caucasian students are required to set aside their cultural upbringing and think like a Caucasian as they explain why the project they have come up with conforms to Western values of "form and function" if they wish to succeed.
09-22-2011, 09:49 AM
#71 bladerunner
Re: China's Education system compared to the USA
Originally Posted by no_name
Lack of (or difference in) perspective seems to be the case with some of the technical drawings too, giving a somewhat uncommon view.
It certainly made a mockery on this opinion, expressed in the link provided by default user
".....This is a question that is still open, though present evidence seems to favour the view that the Chinese artists were content to take the methods handed down to them without worrying much about the solution of problems of projection, which belong more properly, perhaps, to architects, mechanics and scientists. And in general this conformity to custom has not been exclusively the characteristic of the Chinese artist......."
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As for landscape and street scenes I feel the perspective chosen is an effort to present a panorama view of the scenes.
Also perhapse they feel that lightning/shadows is somewhat arbitrary dependent on many factor so simply don't include them or just assume the object is illuminated equally from all direction to represent what they feel is the most objective representation of the object itself
.
yup why worry its art for arts sake. Leave science out of it, seems to be the asian reasoning. That's according to article in the link I mentioned previously.
09-22-2011, 10:12 AM
#72 montyp165
Re: China's Education system compared to the USA
yup why worry its art for arts sake. Leave science out of it, seems to be the asian reasoning. That's according to article in the link I mentioned previously.
Creativity is a characteristic that is not dependent strictly on intellect, as experiments with computer programs have shown AIs demonstrating greater creativity wrt solutions to problems compared with human generated answers. Animal experiments also show this as well, which is why the more important aspect is knowing how the subjective aspect modifies the objective aspect rather than saying either/or.
09-22-2011, 11:52 AM
#73 Equation
Re: China's Education system compared to the USA
Originally Posted by bladerunner
No it doesn't in fact none of them do.Kyanges gives the reasons to which Ill add to.
Some of the pictures have no or a flat background eg the flowers and that tree thingy
The figures appear to be floating
No Cast shadow
Some of the background buildings and figures are the samesize as the foreground figures
Lack of Vanishing point or a Horizon line in other words they lack Alberti's sense of perspective
(Alberti was regarded as the originator of perspective drawing in European art)
As Kayanges said the subject is the essence rather than what the eye really sees and perhaps this still applies in Asian thinking in the arts, general study?
Well what ever the reason is, it must have been pretty powerful for no pre European contact Asian in thousands oy years to thinkarggghhh to heck with it Im gonna paint what my eye really sees.
Just something slightly different
From what Ive seen in Asian paintings, the more important the figure in the painting /drawing the larger it is compared to the people around him/her. For instance in paintings of Mao in groups of people he appears sligtly larger, and compare that with paintings of say George Washington where there isn't really anything to make him standout from his fellow revolutionists.
I like your explanation there. Actually there are several "two-point perspectives" on that painting. The bridge curving, the boat to the right show casing the oars and finally the village houses. I like it because it showcases the structure of the bridge and intricacy of how everything has an almost equal action in the paintings. The bridge stands out as the primary objective of the painting, but as one look closely in depth you can see the different kinds of people carrying and doing different things at the same time. Light and shadows provides a more in depth illusion, it enhances the perspectives more, therefore more dramatic for the viewer.
09-23-2011, 05:32 AM
#74 no_name
Re: China's Education system compared to the USA
Another reason why chinese art adopted different perspective is because alot of the motifs were originally used for furniture/other flat surface decorations where a too deep perspective will not be suitable. Neither will shadows be suitable:
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