#2 valikor :
I do not know a grammar rule to answer your question,but I do think both of those sentences sound wrong.
I would probably use a different phrasing, such as oneof the following:
我们不是一起上汉语课的。
我们不是同一个班的学生。
etc.
Hopefully someone smarter than me can give you a moredefinite answer. Good luck!
Improving:
Thank you for your answer!
The problem is that the example I wrote is in a ChineseGrammar...but the solution is not indicated...so, I guess, one of those twomust be right, but I can't say which one... :wall
谢谢你的解答!
问题的关键在于我举的例子里的语法…但是你的解答没有指出来…所以我猜它们中的一个一定是对的,但我分辨不出来
Skylee:
Both sentences can be understood, but differently. The first one means that we don't dosomething together. The second one meansthat together we do not do something. Sothe first one means that "we don't go to the same Chinese class",whereas the second one means that "we decide not to go to the ChineseClass (and go to the cinema or go hiking, etc)".
两个句子都通。第一句意思是我们不一起做某事。第二句意思是我们一起不做某事。所以第一句就意味着“我们不去同一节中文课”,而第二句则是“我们决定不去上中文课(然后去看电影或逛街,等)”
joggerWu:
I think you got it right for the first one 我们不一起上汉语课,the 2nd one isn't a real sentence. Does it say something about 定语?
我觉得对于第一句‘我们不一起上汉语课’你是对的,而第二句不是一个真正的句子。貌似它缺少了定语?
joggerWu:Right, right, I'm with skylee for now. It's just the 2nd one soundslittle awkward to me, maybe better not to use it.
对,对,我现在同意skylee的说法了。只是第2句对我来说听起来怪怪的,所以你最好别用这句。
Cassidy:
I don't know the grammar rule, but as a Chinese, I thinkboth of them are right, but they have different meanings.
- 我们不一起上汉语课
We don't have Chinese lesson together.
- 我们一起不上汉语课
We don't have Chinese lesson.
Whenever“不” put, it negates the next verb after itself.
such as:我不喜欢做作业,"不" negates the next verb "喜欢", means"dislike"
but 我喜欢不做作业, "不"negatesthe next verb "做",means "don't do"
So I think both these sentences are right, it dependswhat do you want to say
Improving:
So, they are both right? ...Then, why in that exercise Iam asked to find the right one?
所以他们都是对的?…那么为什么我的练习题会叫我找出正确的那个?(这是多坑爹的练习题啊←_←)
Roddy:
Which book is this, and what's the full question?
哪一本书?全题是怎么问的?
Improving
It is a Chinese Grammar book for Italians edited byHoepli. That unit is about the negation "不" and the otherone "没", and the exercise just ask to choose the right sentence!
I agree with you all. When I read them for the firsttime, they both don't sound wrong to me, just different in meanings. But,because I was asked to find the right one, I thought there was an error in thefirst sentence or in the second one...I simply wonder if there is a particularrule or a criterion for considering as "right" one of them!
是一本给意大利人学习中文的语法书,由Hoepli编著。那一章是关于否定词“不”和另一个“没”的,而问题仅仅是叫我去选出正确的句子!
我都同意你们的观点。当我第1词看到的时候,我觉得它们都没错,只是意思不同。但因为题目叫我选出正确的一句,我就觉得其中一定有一句是错的…我只是想知道是否有特定的规则或情况来决定哪个它们中是“正确“的!
Michaelyus
I agree with valikor above; both sentences soundungrammatical to me. I've already spotted a mis-use of 一起 and 不 in theanswer key of the Corso Base as edited by Hoepli.
I think there are several issues here, and I think noneof them relate directly to 不 vs 没. One of them is where adverbs that are not monosyllabic referentialadverbs (in the words of Yip & Rimmington) come with respect to 不. The otheris the inherent dissonance of the pairing disyllabic adverbs that must existwithout 地 with a monosyllabic negative adverb. You could pick one based onthe first criterion alone, but I'm not sure you have met adverbial ordering inChinese yet.
我同意valikor在上面说的(译者吐槽:喂喂,中国人都出来说没问题了,你还去同意一个错误的答案←_←);在我看来两个都不符合语法。我在由Hoepli编著的Corso Base中发现了一个关于“一起”和“不”一起用的答案。
我觉得这里有好几个问题,而我觉没有一个是直接关于“不”VS“没”。其中一个是副词中关于单音节副词不直接和“不”联系(在Yip & Rimmington一书中提及)。另一种是内在不一致的双音节副词出现没有“地”出现在单音节否定副词(译注:这段关于语法的翻译得不是很通顺)。你应该在这两种规则中单独选一种,但我不肯定你符合了中文里的状语顺序。
joggerWu:
Then I'm pretty sure the correct answer is the 1st one.As you can see both are the basic structure--主、谓、宾 for a sentence.
It's practically where you place the 否定 that makesthe difference, nothing to do with the 一起.
As in 我们不一起上汉语课, orderly 主语、否定、状语、谓语、宾语, the 状语‘一起’ is modifying the verb 上 and then thepreceding 不 is negativing the 状语‘一起’;conversely, 我们一起不上汉语课, orderly 主语、状语、否定、谓语、宾语. Since the negatory gobefore the 谓语, instead, which is accordingly negativing the verb 上.
Coupled with the interpretation all the other guysposted, I think it'll tackle your hassle
joggerWu:
Oh, almostforgot, the 2nd sentence is grammatical correct, but naturally wrong. It's asif when you use it in a talk with a native, they can tell both your meaning andyour origin. Thinking about the "long time no see" in English.
啊,几乎忘了,第2句在语法上是正确的,但实际用法错了。如果你在街上和当地人这么说,它们也能明白你的意思。就像英语里的"long time no see"一样。
Mindmaxd:
我们不一起上汉语课We 不一起, means we are not together.
- 我们一起不上汉语课We 一起不 means we are together not
So you they are all right,it you want use 没 replace 不,the firstone will be better.
陳德聰:
My firstinstinct when I see this type of question is that the answer they want you topick is "we're not in the same class" and not "we both decide (atogether decision) to not go to class", just since usually I feel likepeople who write textbooks put in these kinds of examples to give you the chanceto pretend you are a model student and not to say "hey we like to skipclass".
Either way bothsound funny to me personally, I would say 我们不在一起上汉语课 to meanthat we aren't in the same class.
当我看到题目的第一感觉是,题目是想让你去选“我们不一起上课”而不是“我们决定(一个一起决定的抉择)一起不上课”就像平时我觉得人们编写教科书的时候会挑选这类问题来给你个机会去假装你是个好学生,而不是说“嘿,我们喜欢逃课”。
对我来说2种都能有趣,我更可能回选“我们不在一起上汉语课”意思是我们不在一个班
Creamyhorror:
Would you say 我们在一起上汉语课?一起 is an adverb here, and 在 would convert it to an object, splitting it off from the verbphrase 上汉语课 and making it sound odd (to my ears).
你会说“我们在一起上汉语课”吗?“一起”在这里是副词,而“在”则把它转化为宾语,把“上汉语课”这句动词结构句拆开,这让我听起来觉得很奇怪。
陳德聰:
I'm not surewhat you mean that it would convert it into an object... It's still anadverbial phrase... I think the reason I inserted the 在 in thenegative is because it feels awkward negating 一起 here... Though Iguess not in every sentence ever, "为什么不一起上课?"doesn't give me the same heebyjeeby feeling.
我不是很明白你所说的“把它转化为宾语”…这仍然是个动词结构句…我觉得我在这个否定句里加入“在”这次字是因为我觉得它让我有否定了“一起”的感觉…尽管我觉得不是在每个句子里也这样,“为什么不一起上课?”没有给我同样奇怪的感觉。
ABCsOfChinese:
Colloquially inTaiwan I always hear: 我們沒有一起上課.
Was that a thirdoption? You said the unit is about the negation "不" and"没"
在台湾的俗语里我经常听到:我们没有一起上课。
这是第3个选择吗?你说过这个话题是关于否定词“不”和“没”